tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post5592437389723190331..comments2023-05-12T05:38:51.341-07:00Comments on Maggie's Blog Against Pornography & Sexploitation: The Culture of Patriarchists Hates WomenMaggiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-90838100417502061322008-11-07T08:53:00.000-07:002008-11-07T08:53:00.000-07:00a lot of the power men now hold, was once rightful...<I>a lot of the power men now hold, was once rightfully women's power. Even if a long time ago.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, Dissenter, hopefully. :)Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-90036525569592492112008-11-06T20:54:00.000-07:002008-11-06T20:54:00.000-07:00Oh yes, I agree men have the power of naming in co...Oh yes, I agree men have the power of naming in contemporary times, and have for a long time, and that women need to get it back. I guess that for me, it just helps to realise that a lot of the power men now hold, was once rightfully women's power. Even if a long time ago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-92176278941937005702008-11-06T16:42:00.000-07:002008-11-06T16:42:00.000-07:00No bother about the nit-picking.Well I did say tha...No bother about the nit-picking.<BR/><BR/>Well I did say that the language was invented by the patriarchy. Most currently spoken languages were invented by the patriarchy. But I did not say that language, in itself, has always been patriarchal, I don't think so.<BR/><BR/><I>women were actually the ones who invented language, or controled language, and that power was later stolen and corrupted by men, perhaps in conjunction with the development of written language, which was only taught to men (and then only to upper-class men, further restricting power).<BR/><BR/>I just wonder, because examining the history of literature from a herstorical perspective, what I've found is that women authors were often the innovators and inventors, and it was men who came along later and stole and corrupted their achievements for their own ends, and were then credited with the "invention" of whatever. Maybe it was the same for language, or at least for some languages.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, yeah, (maybe not the English language or other languages invented by patriarchy but) regarding language as communication, it's possible:<BR/><BR/>“. . . it is necessary to grasp the fundamental fact that women have had the power of naming stolen from us.”<BR/>-- Mary Daly.<BR/><BR/>Though, within the current system, currently spoken languages were invented by patriarchy as male supremacy is fused in to the language:<BR/><BR/><BR/>“. . . men have the power of naming, a great and sublime power. This power of naming enables men to define experience, to articulate boundaries and values, to designate to each thing its realm and qualities, to determine what can and cannot be expressed, to control perception itself. . . Male supremacy is fused into the language, so that every sentence both heralds and affirms it. Thought, experienced primarily as language, is permeated by the linguistic and perceptual values developed expressly to subordinate women. Men have defined the parameters of every subject. All feminist arguments, however radical in intent or consequence, are with or against assertions or premises implicit in the male system, which is made credible or authentic by the power of men to name. No transcendence of the male system is possible as long as men have the power of naming. . . <B>so feminists will have to steal the power of naming from men, hopefully to better effect</B>. . .”<BR/>-- Andrea Dworkin.<BR/><BR/>But regarding language as it existed before patriarchy started, well, possibly, I dunno.<BR/><BR/>One thing is for sure: We will have to steal back the power of naming from the patriarchists, as there is no doubt that they currently have the power of naming.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-70714139057320268682008-11-06T00:13:00.000-07:002008-11-06T00:13:00.000-07:00Hey Maggie,I'm not so rushed now, so I've had anot...Hey Maggie,<BR/><BR/>I'm not so rushed now, so I've had another slower and more thoughtful read through of your post.<BR/><BR/>It's really fantastic, so thanks for writing it!<BR/><BR/>While I totally agree that language these days is controled by patriarchy (as is culture, religion, ideology and morals), I do wonder whether language was originally invented by men, and if it has always been patriarchal, as you say in your post here:<BR/><BR/><I>The language was invented by the patriarchy, and I want to obey no edict or rule given by the male-supremacist system.</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry if I sound like I'm nit-picking, I don't mean this at all in a nasty or mean-spirited way, it just got me wondering.<BR/><BR/>I think a lot of studies show that girls demnstrate better and more complex understanding of language at an early age, so perhaps, long ago before patriarchy, women were actually the ones who invented language, or controled language, and that power was later stolen and corrupted by men, perhaps in conjunction with the development of written language, which was only taught to men (and then only to upper-class men, further restricting power).<BR/><BR/>I just wonder, because examining the history of literature from a herstorical perspective, what I've found is that women authors were often the innovators and inventors, and it was men who came along later and stole and corrupted their achievements for their own ends, and were then credited with the "invention" of whatever. Maybe it was the same for language, or at least for some languages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-70764627706372458572008-10-30T15:53:00.000-07:002008-10-30T15:53:00.000-07:00Thanks for quoting me, makes me feel special and l...<I>Thanks for quoting me, makes me feel special and loved. ;)</I><BR/><BR/>You're very welcome, Allecto. You're a very special and loved feminist to me. :) <BR/><BR/><I>I don't think this is just historical either.</I><BR/><BR/>I've just added the sentence "Misogyny is also contemporary" in my above post and I definitely should have done it earlier. The word "historical" is definitely double-sided and can be misused/misinterpreted in a patriarchy. While misogyny has a huge <I>his</I>tory, it is also very much contemporary as well (but I think my post had already made it clear). Thanks for pointing that out to me, Allecto.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I recognize marriage as a site of oppression and a patriarchal institution.<BR/><BR/>Of course, there are many great women and great feminists who are married, but personally I'll <I>never</I> get married. It would be a 'social death' to me. <BR/><BR/><I>Most women still believe that being sexually available is a duty to their husband/boyfriend and all the studies that I've seen show that women are still doing the majority of child-care and domestic labour within heterosexual households. So no marriage isn't a historical institution of slavery, it is very much a contemporary one. Slightly reworked to better disguise the slavery aspect but far from free nonetheless.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, definitely! You put it well, Allecto.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-7584196152493287272008-10-30T02:45:00.000-07:002008-10-30T02:45:00.000-07:00I meant to leave a comment before and didn't have ...I meant to leave a comment before and didn't have the time. Thanks for quoting me, makes me feel special and loved. ;)<BR/><BR/>I personally think marriage is bascially sexual and domestic slavery for women. I don't think this is just historical either. Most women still believe that being sexually available is a duty to their husband/boyfriend and all the studies that I've seen show that women are still doing the majority of child-care and domestic labour within heterosexual households. So no marriage isn't a historical institution of slavery, it is very much a contemporary one. Slightly reworked to better disguise the slavery aspect but far from free nonetheless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-8240044361784590732008-10-27T09:57:00.000-07:002008-10-27T09:57:00.000-07:00Thank goodness for you Maggie.Thank goodness for y...<I>Thank goodness for you Maggie.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank goodness for you too, Pisaquari. *Hugs* :)Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-90170868709373466352008-10-27T08:58:00.000-07:002008-10-27T08:58:00.000-07:00oooo, I love all the quotes at the beginning. Exp...oooo, I love all the quotes at the beginning. Exposing men's absurd beliefs and then following up with the likes of geniuses Dworkin, Russell, et al--yes!ness.<BR/><BR/>College classrooms really annoyed me too. Guys were quick to tie some off-topic sexist joke to a lecture (in the most *reaching* of ways) & then the female students would take to swooning/blushing/turning in their seats and FLIRTING. "You're such a woman-hating jerk, my place later?"<BR/><BR/><BR/>Thank goodness for radical feminist blogs in college. Thank goodness for you Maggie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-17163008878116292572008-10-26T16:09:00.000-07:002008-10-26T16:09:00.000-07:00Excellent post, really hope you feel better soon.T...<I>Excellent post, really hope you feel better soon.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks a lot, Miss Andrea. *Hugs* :) <BR/><BR/><I>Been thinking I'd feel more cheerful if I didn't have such a irredeemably low opinion of men.</I><BR/><BR/>I may be more optimistic than you are regarding gender (masculinity) socialization & conditioning, I don't know. But I can definitely imagine how you feel, given the <I>his</I>tory of misogyny and the ongoing epidemic of woman-hating & male violence against women. All this is absolutely atrocious and so sad. :( <BR/><BR/><I>Why is it that some of us can see through the denial, painful as that may be, and most women can't -- or won't?</I><BR/><BR/>I think it's something to do with the coping mechanism women have, that Sophie talked about (which I quoted in my post), probably...<BR/><BR/>I used to be unable to see through the denial, myself, before I became a feminist.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-58286359927089790772008-10-26T14:05:00.000-07:002008-10-26T14:05:00.000-07:00Excellent post, really hope you feel better soon. ...Excellent post, really hope you feel better soon. But personally I get tired of all those "perky optimistic" posts LOL. <BR/><BR/>Been thinking I'd feel more cheerful if I didn't have such a irredeemably low opinion of men. Why is it that some of us can see through the denial, painful as that may be, and most women can't -- or won't?<BR/><BR/>Oblivion may be bliss but it sure hurts in some unfathomable way far more painful than denial, at least for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-30990803420205869742008-10-23T15:23:00.000-07:002008-10-23T15:23:00.000-07:00Thanks, Evo and Delphyne. :)The quotes from the Wi...Thanks, Evo and Delphyne. :)<BR/><BR/><I>The quotes from the Witches' Hammer are especially chilling.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree. The <I>Malleus Maleficarum</I> is pure woman hating.<BR/><BR/><I>I can't believe you've only been a radical feminist for two years. You sound like you've been doing this forever.</I><BR/><BR/>Really? Wow, I can't believe it. :)<BR/><BR/><I>I think marriage is about property. It's not "woman hating" it's woman ignoring. The woman becomes a commodity of the male in marriage. That's why she takes his name.</I><BR/><BR/>That's right.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-65467412570140745742008-10-23T12:28:00.000-07:002008-10-23T12:28:00.000-07:00I think marriage is about property. It's not "woma...I think marriage is about property. It's not "woman hating" it's woman ignoring. The woman becomes a commodity of the male in marriage. That's why she takes his name. <BR/><BR/>In Levi-Strauss's theories of kinship women are merely tokens of exchange between men. <BR/><BR/>Sounds about right to me. Romantic relationships are the women are sold marriage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-40910779738174259882008-10-23T08:49:00.000-07:002008-10-23T08:49:00.000-07:00I'm with dissenter, I agree with everything you've...I'm with dissenter, I agree with everything you've said Maggie. Thanks for saying it so well.<BR/><BR/>I can't believe you've only been a radical feminist for two years. You sound like you've been doing this forever. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-90995279053290539712008-10-23T07:49:00.000-07:002008-10-23T07:49:00.000-07:00Hey, Maggie. Great post. The quotes from the Wit...Hey, Maggie. Great post. The quotes from the Witches' Hammer are especially chilling. I've never read the book, though as a woman and a quasi-pagan I suppose I should.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the great work!EvolEvohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05329001165205463847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-28184065595337330742008-10-22T16:13:00.000-07:002008-10-22T16:13:00.000-07:00Thanks, Dissenter. :)Thanks, Dissenter. :)Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-57496041877885228172008-10-22T16:10:00.000-07:002008-10-22T16:10:00.000-07:00Hey Maggie, great post. I don't really have anythi...Hey Maggie, great post. I don't really have anything to add...I think you nailed it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-20571297986137792652008-10-22T15:02:00.000-07:002008-10-22T15:02:00.000-07:00Sorry, I meant to write "As for romantic relations...Sorry, I meant to write "As for romantic relationship<B>s</B>, I believe that, yes, *they are possible*. Absolutely. But, unfortunately, men have been <B>usually</B> socially trained to hate us in a patriarchy...<BR/><BR/>Also, I forgot to put an "s" at the end of "abusive marriage relationship<B>s</B>".Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-51431621430324007572008-10-22T14:54:00.000-07:002008-10-22T14:54:00.000-07:00So, wait, you think marriage, and having romantic ...<I>So, wait, you think marriage, and having romantic relationships is "woman-hating"?</I><BR/><BR/>No, I don't think that marriage is inherently "woman-hating." I think it's a socially constructed male-supremacist institution that restricts freedom. Marriage is often bolstered by patriarchal religion. Women used to be held captive in marriage and, in some cases, still are. That doesn't mean that every single marriage is oppressive, or that I don't acknowledge that some women in wrong marriages can get freedom through divorce. That means that I recognize that marriage is one of the twin pillars of a patriarchal society. My main attitude toward marriage is that it was socially constructed by patriarchy; and, to me, it would be a restriction of freedom, which is why I'll never get married. I have, however, friends who got married. I don't blame them. It's often portrayed as glamorous by the culture. It's just that marriage has often been used to promote gender roles and heteronormativity and to restricts women's freedom somehow. As I said, "generally, a wife has to allow herself to "be fucked" by her husband as a 'duty'"; and also women often find themselves in abusive marriage relationship where they cannot get out... But, <B>anyway, marriage is not the main subject of my post; it is not what worries me the most.</B> I believe it is a site of oppression, yes. That doesn't mean I say every single married women is unhappy, it means I say that marriage is mainly a patriarchal social construct that can, in many cases (though not always), restrict freedom for women.<BR/><BR/><I>Think whatever you want.</I><BR/><BR/>You can think whatever you want too. As for romantic relationship, I believe that, yes, *they are possible*. Absolutely. But, unfortunately, men have been socially trained to hate us in a patriarchy...Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-37122914441590687202008-10-22T06:22:00.000-07:002008-10-22T06:22:00.000-07:00So, wait, you think marriage, and having romantic ...So, wait, you think marriage, and having romantic relationships is "woman-hating"?<BR/><BR/>...yeahhhh. That doesn't even make sense, but okay. Think whatever you want.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-10842081682073193762008-10-22T04:05:00.000-07:002008-10-22T04:05:00.000-07:00Thank you so much, Anonymous. :) Have you seen the...Thank you so much, Anonymous. :) <BR/><BR/><I>Have you seen the Rape Crisis Scotland campaign, 'This in not an invitation to rape me'? I'd really appreciate it if you would be able to post a link on your blog that others may be able to pick up.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, It's a great website. I've linked it to my blogroll last night, I will mention it in a future post and I will link it to my main 'Against Pornography' site as soon as I update it.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06050195471548220023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-842371161692173823.post-59876846363429306642008-10-21T21:50:00.000-07:002008-10-21T21:50:00.000-07:00Maggie, excellent post. It's all too easy to becom...Maggie, excellent post. It's all too easy to become exhausted and disillusioned by the scale of the task we face to transform the world, but it's important to try and hold onto the fact that, even though there is only so much we can do, every little thing that we can manage is important. Your website is a wonderful resource for people to access information and your blog always has words provoking reflection and thought and challenges to particular ways of thinking.<BR/>Have you seen the Rape Crisis Scotland campaign, 'This in not an invitation to rape me'? I'd really appreciate it if you would be able to post a link on your blog that others may be able to pick up. The campaign challenges rape myths and attempts to place the blame firmly on male perpetrators. It is another important contribution from feminism which will hopefully be picked up in other countries (it ran in LA a number of years ago).<BR/>I hope you can retain your fight and energy to continue the work that you have been doing. We can make a difference if we continue to use our voices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com